At 13 he was selling crack. By 30 he was a hip-hop legend—having gone, in his words, “from grams to Grammys.” Now Jay-Z charts his escape from the hard-knock life, describes the reunion that healed the wounds of his childhood—and even reveals the standing Sunday date he has with what’s her name.
The first time the hip-hop artist and record executive Jay-Z witnessed a murder, he was 9 years old. It was 1978, and in those days, he was known as Shawn Carter—a quiet kid who lived with his mother and three siblings in a sprawling housing project in the Bedford-Stuyvesant section of Brooklyn.
“That was my apartment right there—5C,” Jay-Z told me one afternoon in August as we strolled the sidewalks of the Marcy Houses. “Navigating this place was life-or-death.” He wasn’t exaggerating; as the crack epidemic took hold in the 1980s, 13-year-old Jay-Z began selling drugs. His father had abandoned the family when Jay-Z was 11. And like many of his friends, he found his role models in the neighborhood dealers. “On the streets, you had to operate with integrity,” he told me. “If you broke your word to someone, he wasn’t going to take you to court—he was going to deal with you himself. So it was here in the projects that I learned loyalty.”
It was in the projects, too, that he began rapping. Around the neighborhood Shawn became known as Jazzy—a reference, he says, to the way he carried himself: “like an older guy, like an older spirit.” He gained a local following after he started selling his own records out of his car. And in 1996—disenchanted with the small-time label that finally signed him—he launched his own label, Roc-A-Fella Records. Later that year, Reasonable Doubt hit stores nationwide, and Jay-Z (the play on Jazzy he’d adopted after that name started to feel “too glittery”) was on his way.
Since then, Jay-Z has released ten solo studio albums (the most recent, The Blueprint 3, debuted on September 11, 2009). He has sold more than 30 million records, won seven Grammys, and built a business empire that includes the Rocawear clothing line and Roc Nation entertainment company. In 2004 he became a part owner of the NBA’s New Jersey Nets.
In December he will turn 40, and in recent years his focus has been on more than just his career. In 2003 he reconciled with his father, Adnes Reeves, shortly before Reeves’s death. That same year, he began to put his wealth to good use, founding the Shawn Carter Scholarship Fund for disadvantaged and formerly incarcerated youth who hope to attend college (though Jay-Z never did time himself, in 2001 he pleaded guilty to stabbing a record executive at a Manhattan nightclub and was sentenced to three years’ probation). In 2006 he teamed up with the United Nations to raise awareness of the worldwide water shortage. And in 2008, after six years of dating, he married the singer Beyoncé Knowles.
After our walk through the Marcy projects, Jay-Z and I visit a three-story row house a few blocks away. The house used to belong to his grandmother, and until he was 5, Jay-Z lived here with his parents, three siblings, and extended family. As we sit on the front stoop chatting (the same spot where, Jay-Z says, he spent long summer evenings “just chillin’”), the passersby who spot him form a crowd on the sidewalk; several boys climb the iron fence that surrounds the property. “Is that really Jay-Z?” one boy says to another. “Yep—and he’s from here,” the other responds.
Sitting on this stoop, it’s stunning to think about how far Jay-Z has come. Not only is he an entirely self-made man, he’s found his great success doing exactly what he loves. He is thoughtful and intelligent, a reader and a seeker. And in between telling me how he survived life on the streets, how a scolding from his mother helped him fall in love, and even how he and Beyoncé managed to keep their wedding small and private, he explains why he cares so much about connecting with kids who remind him of him—kids he hopes will point to his photo and say, “I can make it, too.”
Oprah: So tell me how you got into the drug dealing.
Jay-Z: It was natural.…
Oprah: Because drug dealers were your role models. There wasn’t a teacher or a lawyer or a nurse or a doctor or an accountant in the neighborhood?
Jay-Z: Well, we were living in Marcy by then, so, no. And if anyone did become something like that, they moved out. They never came back to share the wisdom of how they made it. If anyone made it, you never knew it. That’s why I’ve always said that if I became successful, I’d come back here, grab somebody, and show him how it can be done.
Oprah: So by the time you were 13, this was a way of life. Did the lifestyle frighten you?
Jay-Z: No. It was normal. And at some point, you become addicted to the feeling. The uncertainty and adrenaline and danger of that lifestyle.
Oprah: This is where we differ. This is where we differ. Because I’d be very scared! Weren’t you shot at three times—within six feet—and you lived to talk about it?
Jay-Z: That was divine intervention. Divine intervention, and nobody knowing how to shoot.
Oprah: What happened in each situation?
Jay-Z: It was one situation, three shots.
Oprah: So he was a bad shot.
Jay-Z: Well, no one really practices shooting a TEC-9 machine gun, right? And when you’re a kid, with little bony arms—no wonder nobody could aim.
Oprah: Many of the little boys who grew up in the Marcy projects are either in jail or dead. Why do you think you got to grow up and buy your mom a house?
Jay-Z: There’s the gift, there’s the spirit, and there’s the work—all three have to come together. If one of those things is off, it can stop you from becoming who you were meant to be.
Oprah: When I met you a few years ago, we discussed our disagreement over the use of the N word and misogynist lyrics in rap music. Do you believe that using the N word is necessary?
Jay-Z: Nothing is necessary. It’s just become part of the way we communicate. My generation hasn’t had the same experience with that word that generations of people before us had. We weren’t so close to the pain. So in our way, we disarmed the word. We took the fire pin out of the grenade.
Next: Jay-Z on the wedding–>
Oprah: We all carry memories that are triggered when we return to a childhood home. What are your fondest memories from here?
Jay-Z: Outside in front is where I learned to ride a bike. I learned to ride a ten-speed when I was 4 or 5. My uncle gave me the bike, hand-me-down, and everyone used to stare at me riding up and down this block.
Oprah: You could ride a ten-speed when you were 5?
Jay-Z: I was too short to reach the pedals, so I put my legs through the V of the frame. I was famous. The little kid who could ride the ten-speed.
Oprah: Wow. That’s one great memory. Any others?
Jay-Z: The boat. For some reason there was an abandoned boat on this block. We used to play on it all the time, every day.
Oprah: You know, I also grew up poor, but rural poor is different. Did you feel poor?
Jay-Z: Not at all. Probably the first time was in school when I couldn’t get the newest sneakers. We didn’t have elaborate meals, but we didn’t go without. We ate a lot of chicken. You know, ’cause chicken’s cheap. We had so much chicken—chicken backs, chicken everything. To this day, I can only eat small pieces or else I feel funny.
Oprah: That’s too much chicken in a lifetime. So when you were 5, your family moved to the Marcy projects—and then your father left when you were 11. When you look back at that, what did your 11-year-old self feel?
Jay-Z: Anger. At the whole situation. Because when you’re growing up, your dad is your superhero. Once you’ve let yourself fall that in love with someone, once you put him on such a high pedestal and he lets you down, you never want to experience that pain again. So I remember just being really quiet and really cold. Never wanting to let myself get close to someone like that again. I carried that feeling throughout my life, until my father and I met up before he died.
Oprah: Wow. I’ve never heard a man phrase it that way. You know, I’ve done many shows about divorce, and the real crime is when the kids aren’t told. They just wake up one day and their dad is gone. Did that happen to you?
Jay-Z: We were told our parents would separate, but the reasons weren’t explained. My mom prepared us more than he did. I don’t think he was ready for that level of discussion and emotion. He was a guy who was pretty detached from his feelings.
Oprah: Did you wonder why he left?
Jay-Z: I summed it up that they weren’t getting along. There was a lot of arguing.
Oprah: And did you know you were angry?
Jay-Z: Yeah. I also felt protective of my mom. I remember telling her, “Don’t worry, when I get big, I’m going to take care of this.” I felt like I had to step up. I was 11 years old, right? But I felt I had to make the situation better.
Oprah: How did that change you?
Jay-Z: It made me not express my feelings as much. I was already a shy kid, and it made me a little reclusive. But it also made me independent. And stronger. It was a weird juxtaposition.
Oprah: I’ve read that when you were 12, you shot your brother in the shoulder. Did your father’s leaving have anything to do with that? Did it turn you into the kind of angry kid who would end up shooting his brother?
Jay-Z: Yes—and my brother was dealing with a lot of demons.
Oprah: How old was he?
Jay-Z: About 16. He was doing a lot of drugs. He was taking stuff from our family. I was the youngest, but I felt like I needed to protect everybody.
Oprah: Was it a dysfunctional household?
Jay-Z: Looking back, I guess it was quite dysfunctional. But I didn’t have that feeling until I got into my early teen years, when we were living in the Marcy projects. That’s when crack hit my neighborhood hard and I started getting into mischief.
Oprah: How were you in school? I’ve heard that when you were in sixth grade, you tested at a 12th-grade level.
Jay-Z: I was bored and distracted.
Oprah: Did you like anything about school?
Jay-Z: I loved English.
Oprah: I know you love to read now. Were books part of your childhood?
Jay-Z: No. I don’t remember that.
Oprah: And I thought we had so much in common!
Jay-Z: I just daydreamed a lot.
Oprah: What about?
Jay-Z: Performing or playing baseball and basketball. I took my mind out of my environment, to the point where I wasn’t paying attention to what was happening around me. I still do that now.
Oprah: You didn’t listen in class, you didn’t read books—and you still tested as a 12th grader. You must have a naturally high IQ.
Jay-Z: Or I’m an idiot savant.
Oprah: So when did you start rapping?
Jay-Z: I probably started around 9—but I was just playing around.
Oprah: Were the rappers in your neighborhood your role models?
Jay-Z: The drug dealers were my role models. Rappers weren’t successful yet. I remember the first time I saw the Sugarhill Gang on Soul Train. I was 11 or 12. I was like, “What’s going on? How did those guys get on national TV?” And then, when I was a little older, a rapper from the neighborhood got a record deal. I was shocked. “They’re giving you money to do that?” Because by this time, the music had taken hold of the entire neighborhood. Just like crack had before, now this music had taken hold. Everyone was either DJ-ing or rapping.
Oprah: And rapping came naturally for you?
Jay-Z: It was a gift. I had a notebook full of material. It was just a makeshift thing—someone found some papers, put a paper clip on them, and made me a notebook.
Oprah: Please tell me you still have that notebook.
Jay-Z: I wish.
Oprah: When did you realize that rapping was a career possibility—after you saw Sugarhill on TV?
Jay-Z: Yeah—but I still didn’t really think it was a possibility for me. It wasn’t until Jaz got a contract that I was like, “Wow, this stuff is going to happen.” [Jonathan Burks, a.k.a. Jaz-O or Jaz, was Jay-Z's musical mentor.] And Jaz went to London to make an album, and took me with him. I was a kid from Marcy projects, and I spent two months in a London flat.
Oprah: So tell me how you got into the drug dealing.
Jay-Z: It was natural.…
Oprah: Because drug dealers were your role models. There wasn’t a teacher or a lawyer or a nurse or a doctor or an accountant in the neighborhood?
Jay-Z: Well, we were living in Marcy by then, so, no. And if anyone did become something like that, they moved out. They never came back to share the wisdom of how they made it. If anyone made it, you never knew it. That’s why I’ve always said that if I became successful, I’d come back here, grab somebody, and show him how it can be done.
Oprah: So you didn’t have even one positive black role model?
Jay-Z: Just my mom. She worked two jobs and did whatever she had to do for us.
Oprah: Did you aspire to be a drug dealer?
Jay-Z: Well, no. No one aspires to be a drug dealer. You don’t want to bring trouble to your mother’s door, even though that’s what you’re doing. You aspire to the lifestyle you see around you. You see the green BMW, the prettiest car you’ve ever seen. You see the trappings of drug dealing, and it draws you in.
Oprah: How old were you when you got involved?
Jay-Z: Maybe 13.
Oprah: Did you realize it could cost you your life?
Jay-Z: In my mind, that wasn’t risking a lot. You think, “If I’m living like this, I’ll risk anything to get more. What’s the worst that could happen?”
Oprah: You could die.
Jay-Z: Yes, but you don’t think about that.
Oprah: Were you seeing people get shot?
Jay-Z: Definitely—I saw a guy get shot when I was 9. And he wasn’t even a bad guy. His name was Benny. He was the guy who would take us to play baseball. We always believed he could have made it to the majors. He was that good. Some guy was chasing him—and then I heard a shot and saw him on the floor.
Oprah: So by the time you were 13, this was a way of life. Did the lifestyle frighten you?
Jay-Z: No. It was normal. And at some point, you become addicted to the feeling. The uncertainty and adrenaline and danger of that lifestyle.
Oprah: This is where we differ. This is where we differ. Because I’d be very scared! Weren’t you shot at three times—within six feet—and you lived to talk about it?
Jay-Z: That was divine intervention. Divine intervention, and nobody knowing how to shoot.
Oprah: What happened in each situation?
Jay-Z: It was one situation, three shots.
Oprah: So he was a bad shot.
Jay-Z: Well, no one really practices shooting a TEC-9 machine gun, right? And when you’re a kid, with little bony arms—no wonder nobody could aim.
Oprah: Getting shot like that would be a wake-up call for the average guy. But you continued in the drug world.
Jay-Z: You want to shoot back. Well, maybe not everyone, but I did. I was angry.
Oprah: Did you go home and get a gun?
Jay-Z: Yeah. But the guy and I were actually friends.
Oprah: This is also where we differ! I don’t shoot at my friends. Did you ever make up with him?
Jay-Z: You can’t. You can agree not to shoot at each other, but you can’t be friends after that—unless the guy is your brother.
Oprah: You made up with your brother after you shot him?
Jay-Z: Yeah.
Oprah: So even after you went to London with Jaz, you stayed in the drug world?
Jay-Z: Right. Before I went, I spent a week making sure everything would be cool for when I came back. I was preparing to come back to the streets because I always had a fear that this music thing wouldn’t be successful. And since Jaz’s album didn’t work out, I did end up back on the streets. The same record label tried to sign me, but Jaz was the one who’d brought me in, and I felt that signing wouldn’t be loyal to him. So I told them no. I didn’t want to be involved with those record guys. They weren’t stand-up people.
Oprah: It’s ironic that you, a drug dealer, couldn’t trust the guys in the record business, as if they had no integrity!
Jay-Z: Exactly.
Oprah: How do you define integrity?
Jay-Z: As doing the right thing.
Oprah: Do you and Beyoncé have a pact that you just won’t talk about each other?
Jay-Z: Yeah. When you’re a public person, you have to keep some things to yourself, or else people will just—
Oprah: Eat it up. I know. But can I ask how in the world you kept your wedding a secret?
Jay-Z: Late planning!
Oprah: How many people knew?
Jay-Z: Very few. The sad part is that we offended some. But people who love you understand. Because at the end of the day, it’s your day.
Oprah: So here we are, talking on a Sunday afternoon. If you weren’t sitting here with me, what would you be doing?
Jay-Z: I’m gonna get killed for this, but I’ll tell you anyway. There’s a great pizza spot we go to every Sunday. It’s our tradition. It’s a small place in Brooklyn, you can bring your own wine, and there are candles there. It’s a nice date.
Jay-Z is slated to appear on “The Oprah Winfrey Show” Thursday, September 24th show.
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